June 22, 2017

Study confirms: Electric car subsidies “worst and most expensive way to reduce GHGs”

Christopher WilsonRebel Commentator

Montreal Mayor Denis Coderre is going to waste $24 million on a Formula E electric vehicle race so he can do some Liberal virtue signalling, but this brings up larger questions about government subsidies for EVs, and whether or not they actually reduce emissions. 

I’ve always assumed that they can cut emissions but only if the electricity used to charge them came from an emissions-free source, like hydroelectricity.

But now a new report from the Montreal Economic Institute casts doubt on all the claims by environmentalists and governments surrounding EV’s and in particular, government subsidies and rebates given to those who buy them.

At its simplest, the study concluded that “subsidizing the purchase of such vehicles is the least efficient and most expensive way of reducing greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions.”

Report co-author Germain Belzile adds, “Not only do these programs cost taxpayers a fortune, but they also have little effect on GHG emissions. Subsidizing the purchase of electric vehicles represents without a doubt the worst option among current solutions.”

Watch as I show you what else this study concludes regarding the impact of having up to a million EVs on our roads, and the fact that the government subsidies are greatest for our most affluent citizens who buy high end Tesla's and other EV's that 99 per cent of us can't afford.

Do you think Kathleen Wynne or Philippe Couillard will change their policies now that there is evidence these subsidies don't work and only really help the rich?

Of course not!

Comments
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commented 2017-06-24 16:54:50 -0400
Andrew another part of that article, so many big predictions , so little reality.

19) When will I really be able to buy a Tesla Model 3?

An errant iceberg stopped the Titanic a little shy of New York. A minor hiccup forced Apollo 11 to land four miles downrange from its target site on the moon. Big plans rarely go perfectly smoothly, and right now, no one in the car business has more ambitious plans than Elon Musk has for Tesla, which promises to launch a $35,000 Model 3 within the next two years.

Developmentally, the Model 3 occupies an unclear position between notion and production. Yet, in May, Musk pledged that Tesla would deliver 500,000 new electric cars annually by 2018 and a full ­million by 2020. Tesla knocked out only about 30,000 cars during the first half of 2016. Musk seems to thrive on setting monumental challenges for himself and his company and compounding them until they are unimaginably daunting—and then missing his delivery date by a year or two and still proclaiming success.

Projecting exactly when the Model 3 will go on sale (Actual Launch Date, or ALD) takes sophisticated mathematical analysis that incorporates several important factors, including the inevitable Plant Construction Problems (PCP), whether or not Musk Insults or Sues any Suppliers (MISS), and the Massive Determination Factor (MDF) displayed by Musk in achieving his goals. So starting with an Initial Promised Date (IPD) of “Late 2017,” the elegant equation looks like this:
commented 2017-06-24 16:53:23 -0400
Andrew there is more than one type of EV than Tesla as well, and someone listing one for a certain price does not mean it is worth that much. And since there are so few of them and they are so great , then why is someone trying to sell theirs?
commented 2017-06-24 16:52:06 -0400
Andrew sorry but your cherry picked listings are not logical. Here form Car and Driver Mag.
16) Will an ev work for me?

With a dozen different models on sale, it seems safe to say that EVs have arrived. But the uncertainty surrounding whether or not their drivers will arrive at their destinations—most EVs are small hatchbacks with 50 to 90 miles of real-world range—still keeps buyers at bay.

The majority of U.S. households have two cars, though, and the average round-trip commute falls within the range of most EVs. Operated within the range-anxiety radius, EVs make sense as actual cars instead of energy-saving calculators—if you don’t buy one new.

According to the National Automobile Dealers Association, average trade-in values for three-year-old EVs dip by more than 70 ­percent compared with 50 percent for gas-powered compact cars. Battery technology is rapidly improving and getting cheaper. BMW, Ford, and Nissan just upped their capacities for minimal price increases, and, as with old cellphones, EV battery life will inevitably degrade, leading performance to deteriorate faster than it does with a gas engine.

Leasing, however, provides a level of protection against depreciation. And, if an improved model comes out before your term ends, your dealer may upgrade you early. While you can’t claim the $7500 federal tax credit in a lease, your monthly payment will include the discount. Plus, you can still take advantage of state-level rebates and tax credits.
commented 2017-06-24 16:19:58 -0400
Andrew Stephenson, so, the only source you will cite is Auto Trader? I find that very interesting.
Listen, I can’t be the only person who has raised the issue of properly citing your figures, quotes etc…
Failing to do so, is a lame move! Did your teachers not explain why citing is so important? It’s not for shits and giggles. We, the reader of what you post would like to know if you have extrapolated the information correctly; used selective information gathering without naming any caveats; or if you are intentionally misleading people.
You tend to post like you are an authority and never cite your sources (except auto trader), and, I plan to ask Ezra to build-in a plagiarism tool so that we can readily check what people like you post on this site.
commented 2017-06-24 15:56:59 -0400
Andrew Stephenson, how much was your EV and what is the make, model and year? What is the depreciated value of your EV, compared to when you bought it? How often are you charging the battery? How much does it cost to charge it where you live? Have you ever been stranded? Do you have -30 winter temperatures to deal with? Is your car able to start, run heaters of every nature, windshield wipers, all of the usual draws in vehicles? What is the feedback from your family? Do you use public transit through the week, and your EV on weekends?
commented 2017-06-24 13:59:27 -0400
“Peter Netterville commented 18 hours ago
Andrew blurts, “In fact, because Ontario typically dumps about 20GWH every night due to the inability to throttle the nukes, …”

That energy is only dumped because it is in the green energy" contracts of wind and solar that that energy must be used first.

Ontario is the shittiest example of green energy on the planet, and the most expensive. "

Last night Ontario exported approximately 3000MW of electricity. Its “green” generation was only 600. The other 2000+, a very substantial majority, was not “green”, it arises from the fact that the nukes and hydro plants produce 14GW, and Ontario’s nighttime demand is perhaps 11-12. And, as I said, over 8 hours that’s enough surplus power to charge several million electric cars, without a single piece of new infrastructure.

“Drew Wakariuk commented 15 hours ago
Andrew Stephenson electric cars lose 70% of their value over 3 years, they are not good to resell. Try some facts. And how is electricity a renewable resource? "

Most of Canada’s electricity is hydroelectric or nuclear. In ON/QC/BC/NL – which I’ll remind you, are 3/4 of Canadians – run at circa 95% non-fossil fuel fired power.

As for your depreciation claim, here’s Autotrader’s listings of 2012-13 Tesla Model S. They are 4-5 years old, and seem to be about 65-70 at minimum. They went for 85-100k new, indicating these 5 year old cars have only depreciated about 30%, enormously less than your claimed 70% in 3 years. In fact, that’s less depreciation than your typical ICE car, which has depreciated perhaps 60% of value by age 5.
http://www.autotrader.ca/cars/tesla/model%20s/?prx=-1&loc=M9C+5J1&yRng=2012%2c2013&hprc=True&wcp=True&inMarket=advancedSearch

“Peter Netterville commented 18 hours ago
Electric cars are next to useless unless all you do is stay in the cities. But you have to like to pay massive bills for electricity … a form of masochism. In Ontario where people cannot even afford to pay their electric bills without owning an electric car, having an electric car for them would be household economic suicide. "

The group of people that never drive outside the city, or have two vehicles, one which can be a commuter and the other for road trips. Just because it doesn’t work for everyone … doesn’t mean it can’t work for a lot of people, or even most of them. It’s not much different than arguing that sedans are useless since you can’t haul plywood home in them … yet millions have been sold since that’s not a universal impediment.

I’ve already demonstrated the math. Charging costs money, but charging costs LESS money than the comparable gasoline. Even in Ontario. At on-peak rates.
commented 2017-06-23 23:21:39 -0400
Andrew where is that extra power going to come from anyways? More turbines? Or the power unicorn you seem to think exists? And who the hell can afford it?
commented 2017-06-23 23:16:08 -0400
Andrew Stephenson electric cars lose 70% of their value over 3 years, they are not good to resell. Try some facts. And how is electricity a renewable resource?
commented 2017-06-23 20:08:24 -0400
Electric cars are next to useless unless all you do is stay in the cities. But you have to like to pay massive bills for electricity … a form of masochism. In Ontario where people cannot even afford to pay their electric bills without owning an electric car, having an electric car for them would be household economic suicide.
commented 2017-06-23 20:04:31 -0400
Andrew blurts, “In fact, because Ontario typically dumps about 20GWH every night due to the inability to throttle the nukes, …”

That energy is only dumped because it is in the green energy" contracts of wind and solar that that energy must be used first.

Ontario is the shittiest example of green energy on the planet, and the most expensive.
commented 2017-06-23 20:02:11 -0400
Jack Pallance asked, “Does anyone have a read on how much our energy grid would have to expand based on 100% electric cars? Two times, three times the current output?”

I don’t, but I would guess at least three time. Probably much, much more. Ten time or more?

And current “green” alternative energy cannot even supply a small percentage of what we now need. And it is very unreliable.

Until the current green energy alternative sources moves from the crappy solar and wind to fusion (when it is invented), then green energy will not be feasible.

To be clear: I look forward to a reliable cheap alternative energy source to fossil fuels, but that time is not upon us yet no matter how much the Andrew Stephenson’s of this world cry and whine that current green energy is ready for prime time. They are just dreaming.
commented 2017-06-23 15:15:33 -0400
“Jack Pallance commented 36 mins ago
Does anyone have a read on how much our energy grid would have to expand based on 100% electric cars? Two times, three times the current output?”

Napkin calculation:

About 10 million vehicles in Ontario, driven let’s say 20,000km a year, total distance driven is thus 200 billion km/yr. At 6km/kwh that requires 35,000 GWH per year, or 35TWH. Ontario typically generates about 150TWH/yr, so you’d increase total demand about 25%.

In fact, because Ontario typically dumps about 20GWH every night due to the inability to throttle the nukes, that surplus on its own would support about 20% of the fleet being electrified… finding a use for power that is so unwanted that Hydro One has to PAY the Americans to take it.
commented 2017-06-23 15:09:43 -0400
Andrew Stephenson, as I have posted before, and I know you have read them, the EV is out of the question for me, I do commute and live in an area where the winter is extremely cold. I need heated seats; heating steering wheel, four wheel drive etc… I also live in Ontario where Hydro bills are outrageously expensive for many households; mine included.

Choosing EV in order to feel good as you put it, is not wise. How much did you spend on your EV?
commented 2017-06-23 14:36:02 -0400
Does anyone have a read on how much our energy grid would have to expand based on 100% electric cars? Two times, three times the current output?
commented 2017-06-23 14:07:33 -0400
“Tammie Putinski-Zandbelt commented 6 hours ago
I would be interested in knowing the depreciation value of Derek’s Tesla compared to gas powered vehicles!

Also, Tesla fell short in safety testing –
“In crash tests, the safety belt in the Tesla didn’t prevent the dummy’s torso from moving forward, which resulted in it hitting its head on the steering wheel.”
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2017/02/01/teslas-electric-car-falls-short-iihs-crash-tests/97328234/ "

The original Tesla Roadsters are now 6-8 years old, and you’ll have a hard time finding one for under 60k. The secondary market is VERY strong at the moment.

Very few vehicles do well in the small-overlap frontal test.
commented 2017-06-23 14:03:59 -0400
“Allan Peterson commented 4 hours ago
Derek, I think that acceleration thrill will be gone in 40 miles while the POS ICE will be motoring happily along for several hours. And it will have heat in the winter. Thats a lot of scratch to pay for a 40 mile range and lousy heat. ’

He cites a dealership in Vancouer. What winter?

“Tammie Putinski-Zandbelt commented 19 hours ago
Well said Carole Masse.
Doesn’t make sense for Ontarians to buy these vehicles…our Hydro costs would force us to choose what bills to pay vs charging the vehicle that gets approx. 200 km on one charge”

What is important is your cost per distance driven. A 200km range is more than sufficient for most people (it’s a lot more than that typically). But … at 6km/kwh, that 200km charge is 30kwh, which costs under eight dollars at 25c/kwh (higher than Ontario’s peak rate), and 2.50 at 8c/kwh. Even the most efficient ICE car will burn 12 litres of gas to go that far, ten bucks at minimum, and probably quite a b it more. So… even in the worst case scenario, that battery charge costs less than the comparable gas. In the best case … it’s a fifth the cost for the power.

With the advantage that you’re not using nonrenewable resources to drive, way less pollution, and feel good for it.
commented 2017-06-23 10:14:10 -0400
Derek, I think that acceleration thrill will be gone in 40 miles while the POS ICE will be motoring happily along for several hours. And it will have heat in the winter. Thats a lot of scratch to pay for a 40 mile range and lousy heat.
commented 2017-06-23 08:53:54 -0400
“Study confirms: Electric car subsidies “worst and most expensive way to reduce GHGs””

I did not need a study to know that.
commented 2017-06-23 08:00:12 -0400
I would be interested in knowing the depreciation value of Derek’s Tesla compared to gas powered vehicles!

Also, Tesla fell short in safety testing –
“In crash tests, the safety belt in the Tesla didn’t prevent the dummy’s torso from moving forward, which resulted in it hitting its head on the steering wheel.”
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2017/02/01/teslas-electric-car-falls-short-iihs-crash-tests/97328234/
commented 2017-06-22 23:39:23 -0400
Derek you will also notice your acceleration times will get slower as time passes , while those other cars will get affected much less.
commented 2017-06-22 23:38:15 -0400
Derek enjoy your resale value.
commented 2017-06-22 22:31:15 -0400
Chris: I live in BC and I bought a new Tesla model S last December. I did not get any subsidy whatsoever as the car was above the price threshold that subsidies are provided. In fact, I paid a luxury tax of 3% on top of the 12% PST and GST.
I did not buy it to virtue signal either as I don’t believe in the global warming bullshit and I tell people that if they ask if I bought it for that reason. The reason why I bought it for the fun of driving it. I can take just about any punk in his POS ICE (internal combustion engine) car at the lights and that believe me is fun. It is a wonderful car, won’t rust as it is made of aluminum and it is very safe.
Go and test drive on at the Tesla dealership on West 4th in Vancouver. Tell them Derek sent you.
commented 2017-06-22 20:50:37 -0400
Peter Babich, I still think we should drop Suzuki on an ice floe and let nature deal with him!
commented 2017-06-22 20:10:55 -0400
Oh that’s rich. I’d like to see that on every news station. What David Suzuki would call "willful blindness " if he could actually see
commented 2017-06-22 20:07:35 -0400
The hoax/scam is being exposed again..I first read about the scam was approx.. 10 -12 years ago. Thanks to Mr. President Trump for shining a bright light on the scam…more and more facts will surface about the hoax.
commented 2017-06-22 19:40:26 -0400
Not to worry, the Antifa will wreck every EV they see.
commented 2017-06-22 19:27:10 -0400
Well said Carole Masse.
Doesn’t make sense for Ontarians to buy these vehicles…our Hydro costs would force us to choose what bills to pay vs charging the vehicle that gets approx. 200 km on one charge. Also, in Eastern Ontario, our winters are very cold and these vehicles would not be a good choice; the battery could not possibly keep up with heating the car, using windshield wipers, etc…
commented 2017-06-22 18:55:07 -0400
The Liberals can spend billions for the 1% but as long as they say they are working for the middle-class, the population is so uninformed that they will continue to vote for them.